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Opening Out: Since we did the last interview a great deal has happened. How do you feel about the events of the past few years?
Terry Sullivan: Well I’m really pleased with the way Renaissance is progressing. We’ve toured Japan and the album is released in England now and we’re looking forward to touring England next spring. Also Europe is on the cards and possibly America. So we’re looking forward to that very much and doing a new album which we hope we’ll be able to do next year sometime.
O/O: Will the new album have the same line up as the live line up of the band?
TS: I think so yes, definitely Rave and hopefully Dave Keyes and Mickey Simmonds obviously.
O/O: How much creative input did you have on Tuscany?
TS: Not very much. I was recording my own album with John Tout and Annie and Mike phoned us up and said were we interested in doing a Renaissance album? And we said yes, but the songs were already written and ready. We had two weeks rehearsal before we went into the studio. Basically I was sitting there as a drummer just letting them learn the songs and not putting everything I had into those particular rehearsals. So just bits and pieces maybe stops and starts but nothing really creative. All the songs were written by Mike and Annie.
O/O: Did you have control over the actual drum parts? No one told you what they wanted you to play?
TS: No one told me what to play on any of the songs apart from "The Race." On "The Race," Mike came in with a demo he had made with a drum machine on it which was a really stark 4/4 rhythm. He thought it would sound better to be a relentless beat all the way through without many breaks, and so that’s what I did. I just mimicked the hi-hat part, which is harder than it sounds actually because when you play a drum machine part it hasn’t got the human element, the human feel or the human swing and so it’s pretty difficult. In fact I did that in two parts, I just played the hi-hat first of all and played the bass and snare afterwards to get a really machine type sound.
O/O: As you did in the 70’s, you are still playing various percussion instruments other than drum kit. What inspires you to search out these different sounds?
TS: Well originally we were trying in our own way to mimic an orchestra. When I joined the band I was only playing drums on "Prologue." I’m not doing very much percussion at all, apart from Latin percussion and tambourines. But later on when we were trying to mimic the orchestral sound I became interested in Timpani and tuned percussion, Glockenspiel and Vibraphones and I guess I see percussion more as a melodic input to music than just a backing type input. I love world music so I listen to all those sort of things. I don’t know what inspires me to be honest with you now, but I’m just inspired to do it.
O/O: Which are your favourite songs on Tuscany?
TS: "Lady from Tuscany" and "Eva’s Pond."
O/O: But you don’t play on that one.
TS: I know, I think Annie sounds fantastic on that one and it’s a beautiful song, and I think it fits great on a Renaissance album. I also like "1000 Roses," they are my favourites.
O/O: One of my favourites is "Dear Landseer" which has a great feel to it. Did it take a lot of preparation to put your parts together for that song?
TS: I remember that it was one of the first we rehearsed. Roy Wood came down and we were rehearsing in the studio and I think it took us about a day to put the song together. It wasn’t that difficult to put the parts together, Roy Wood just looked at me and said "I think we might have a jazzy feel in this," and I said "I think you’re right" and we just did it and just played the parts.
O/O: The instrumental section has got one of those great Renaissance crescendos, which hasn’t been heard since the 70’s. Whose idea was it do that part?
TS: I think it was John Tout who led us through that to the crescendo. I can’t be sure, as it’s a bit of a haze.
O/O: As there wasn’t a lot of time to rehearse and record the album, is there anything you would change in your playing on any of the songs?
TS: Yeah, there was a lack of rehearsal and listening to them now I can see where I should have done things a bit more forceful in places and I think there are things I left off. I was playing and thinking I would put timpani in there, but because of the time constraints. They were very good because they took their time on the drums though not excessively so. Unfortunately we were under such pressure that I left out pieces that I wanted to put on there like timpani hits and maybe a tubular bell here and there. So there are things I would like to change but it’s water under the bridge now.
O/O: You really seemed to be enjoying yourself at The Astoria concert last March. What did you feel like during and immediately after the set?
TS: When I’m playing with Renaissance, I look out into the audience and I see people’s faces and can see that they’re really enjoying themselves and that it really means something to them. So I felt proud to be playing with Renaissance again and I felt really pleased that the people had made a special effort to come and see us. I felt the love from the audience which just made me really happy, so that was great during the set. After the set I felt exhausted (laughs) because it was our first gig in god knows how many years, and we had a lot to think about as the next day we were going to Japan. So I just felt exhausted and wanted to go back to the hotel and get ready for the next day. I just felt the love from the audience so that’s why I was so happy all the way through the gig.
O/O: That really came across to everyone I think.
TS: I’m really glad, I like to try and give something back and they made a special effort to come and see us on a cold night.
O/O: How different is it playing with the new line up from the old line up?
TS: With the old line up for instance, there’s a part in "Carpet of the Sun" where we used to have eye contact. It was on the build up on the instrumental piece (sings part) which leads into the last chorus. With the new band the timing was all more arranged, so I had to count out time in the middle. On the other hand, playing with David Keyes is like playing with Jon Camp, he is the most fantastic bass player and Rave and Mickey just made everything sound really fantastic so it was a great pleasure to play with the new band. It wasn’t that different.
O/O: Do you have any memories of your tour of Japan?
TS: Yes, we travelled everywhere on the Bullet train, which was fantastic. I got lost in Tokyo on the first night and was late for a dinner with the record company. I went out and just got lost downtown. There’s not that many English people there but I saw a sign on an off-license door which said enter, so I thought, ah they speak English. I went in and spoke to this guy and he was English, from Liverpool and he just directed me back to the hotel. I just got back in time for dinner. That was one memory, the rest of it was the Japanese fans who were fantastic and they had so many copies of the albums going right back to Prologue. Yeah some good memories.
O/O: Mike Dunford mentioned in his interview that you had to do a lot of signing of people’s albums.
TS: That’s right, we were signing a hundred albums a night on the three nights we were there, maybe more. We signed all the programmes and the brochure; there was a lot of signing yeah. My arm was aching before I went on to play (laughs).
O/O: What are your hopes for the future of Renaissance?
TS: Well my hopes are that we keep going and that we keep playing the music that we all love and that there’s a market for and we get better and progress through music.
O/O: Has there actually been any preliminary work done on new material yet?
TS: No, not yet. I’ve sent Annie a couple of songs that I’m hoping will maybe go on to the new album and that’s all I know about so far.
O/O: Do you think it will be similar to Tuscany or will there be a shift in direction?
TS: I think it will be a continuation from Tuscany. I think that had elements of the old Renaissance plus some newer ideas, and I think we will just consolidate that a bit more, and maybe take our time a bit more on the next one. But I think it will still be in the Renaissance style.
O/O: You recently became involved with the soundtrack for a TV documentary. How did this come about?
TS: It came about through a friend of mine in New Milton, Mike Battison of Batts studio. He was given the assignment to do by a friend of his from Australia. It’s called Shangri-La and it’s a trip across China through the mountains across all the lakes and everything. Mike knew I was a percussionist and got in touch with me. He wanted some Chinese type sounding percussion and we started to work together on the project. We’ve finished it now and it should be out next year in England possibly but it’s already been out once or twice in Australia. Mike Battison is also doing a lot of work on the solo album I'm doing. He’s helping me because he’s more technically minded than me (laughs).
O/O: Are you going to do any more soundtrack work in the future?
TS: Yeah we’re actually forming a company between the two of us and we’re bringing in other musicians. We’ve got a few things lined up hopefully, that we’re going to be doing later in the year. It’s all a bit waiting to see what happens at the moment but we’re definitely working together, we are a team and we’re looking to writing sound tracks for anything.
O/O: Before we listen to some of your own songs, could you tell us how the album is coming along and when it’s hoped to be released?
TS: The album's coming along very well. We’ve got nine songs on the album plus a percussion track on the end that I’m doing as a solo piece. John Tout’s been coming down and adding bits and pieces on piano and we’re going to be doing some more over the coming weeks. We’re hoping to release it, but I don’t want it to coincide with anything done by Renaissance, so I’m just waiting until there’s a gap between Renaissance releases and I’ll release it then. Everyone seems to be very positive about it, we’re looking forward to it being released and we hope people like it. It’s similar to the Renaissance style in places because there’s John and myself playing on it anyway.
O/O: We’re going to listen to some of the songs that you’ve written and that are going to be on your new album.
(A beautiful Piano intro starts)
TS: This is a song called "Burning my Bridges."
O/O: This sounds like John Tout playing piano?
TS: That’s right, John Tout played this piano piece to a song that I’d written three years ago. It had a different title and different lyrics and we just had the piano piece sitting there. I brought in Alex Caird-still working on the old melody from the old song and he put down the bass part. I couldn’t finish these lyrics and I thought if it doesn’t work out there’s a reason for it. So I put my hand into a box of lyrics-closed my eyes and after fiddling about-"Burning Bridges" came out and they were written by Betty (Thatcher–Newsinger). So I just changed the melody around and the lyrics matched perfectly. I called Christine in and said listen to this, eureka!!!! (laughs). She came in and put the vocal down and that’s what you’re hearing now. It was a first take and that was this song born.
(Terry’s wife Christine sings this melancholy song in her own style, which is very effective. There are also some nice string sounds on the chorus).
TS: It was sad as we did the vocals to this on September 11th, and I think the vocals we have on the tape at the moment have got so much emotion. Even though they were a first take, I think it’s worth keeping them on there because it affected everybody. We were working under those conditions and I just felt that maybe these vocals should stay and John’s beautiful piano.
O/O: Christine has a very distinctive singing style, very different from Annie in a kind of melancholy way.
TS: Yes I would agree with that. I think Annie is unique and I don’t think it would be even worth trying to compare anybody to Annie. Christine’s got her own style, which I personally love very much and she does justice to the songs. She’s able to express both what I feel in the music and Betty’s lyrics and that is the main job of a singer, to express with empathy and emotion. I think she does a great job.
O/O: What are the lyrics actually about?
TS: "Burning Bridges" is about changing your lifestyle I think. That’s how we felt about it, moving on to something newer. It might be the opening track to the album.
(The next song "If I lied" starts playing)
O/O: I understand your son Lee plays piano on this song.
TS: That’s right, my son Lee, who plays drums with the band Boa, has played piano since he was 7 or 8 years of age. He’s a great fan of John Tout so he has little inflections of John in there I feel. Yeah Lee played piano, Alex Caird played bass, Christine sang, my other son Kristian played guitar and I’m on drums and percussion.
O/O: So this song is a real family affair.
TS: Yeah, It’s a very musical family. I’ve been really blessed that my sons have both been into music and that Christine’s got a nice voice. So it’s cheap (laughs).
("If I lied" is a medium slow song with some quite haunting vocals. There is a great instrumental link full of dramatic strings, which lead into the next vocal section. Lee plays a classical style piano piece which is a nice surprise.)
TS: Lee is really sympathetic to the music that we’re doing and without Lee I don’t think I would have got this far to be honest with you. He’s always been computer literate which I haven’t and he’s been a great help working with the computer.
O/O: There’s a lovely string section on this song.
TS: Yeah, Lee loves putting down the strings and I love the way it descends as opposed to going up, which lots of string lines do. We split the string arrangements between us. I put the string pieces on the breaks into the middle section, but in the chorus he just sits down and says what do you think of this and we just change lines. He was brought up on John Tout so he plays the drums like me and piano like John (laughs) he is the true Renaissance man I think.
O/O: This has a very Russian intro (as the next song "Carry me Home" starts).
TS: Yes, I wouldn’t say it was intentional actually. You’ve picked up on it being Russian but we just thought it was an intro to be honest with you.
O/O: Well the Russian feel is very typical of Renaissance.
TS: Now you’ve said it does sound very Russian. Well the deep piano note is John Tout obviously and that does give it that great edge and then Lee just added the string section over the top. This was a song we wrote about seven years ago and it’s knocked around in various demo forms ever since. When I originally wrote, it was a lot slower with just an organ line behind it and we started off like that on this version but it felt like it needed more life in it so we jazzed it up a bit.
{After the aforementioned Russian intro, "Carry me Home" continues into a mysterious vocal section. Then there is a strong chorus which worms it’s way into your head very quickly. This has a clever little instrumental link and also a very orchestral section where John Tout plays in his distinctive style. From listening to this song it is obvious that Terry's wealth of experience from playing with orchestras along with Lee’s arranging skills has paid dividends. The string arrangements are superb.)
O/O: That’s a very powerful strong chorus.
TS: Yeah thanks Dave. That’s why I’ve stuck with it for seven years. I think good songs stick and others you just forget about and I think I’ve picked nine, which I think in one way are probably my strongest songs.
O/O: That little link piece there is very effective.
TS: I was fortunate enough to be able to play the drums and bass together on this one and we just felt it was right to swing it there, so that’s what we did.
O/O: The strings are very powerful.
TS: Again it’s Lee with the strings. He’s mimicking John’s piano and we built it around his melody for the chorus section here.
O/O: It seems that the Renaissance legacy of orchestral arrangements has really had an effect on your solo work.
TS: Yeah I love orchestral work. It’s been documented many times that when we first walked in to see them playing on "Ashes are Burning" as a band and we saw a real orchestra playing, we were in tears in the control room. I just fell in love with string instruments and brass instruments there and then, it adds the weight, power and atmosphere. John loves orchestras as we all know and I’m just hoping that he enjoys what we’re doing with him (laughs). Kristian's on guitar on this, he’s been really helpful although he’s a bit tied up at the moment because he’s at university.
(The final song Terry played was "South of Winter")
O/O: This sounds like John Tout’s lovely delicate piano playing.
TS: Yeah John played piano on the beginning of this. I think his piano on this is fantastic although we’re listening to the demos now and he’s noticed a couple of places where I think he’s going to tidy it up a bit next time he comes down so that will be interesting for us to hear.
(John’s piano on "South of Winter" is soon joined by bass and Terry’s signature gong heralds the main picked guitar section. Christine sings beautifully over some very melodic bass playing from Alex Caird. Terry’s descending drum fill leads to a powerful chorus with more of those wonderful strings. A choir adds to the majesty of the piece, where it leaves the guitar on it’s own, to signal the second verse. There is an unusual stop after this where the bass hangs on and a Renaissance-like series of punctuations is overlaid by a wind like gong before another final chorus. This is a beautiful song which I’m sure fans will love.)
TS: This is another old song, it goes back five or six years.
O/O: I just heard your gong in there.
TS: Oh yes the gong, this is the gong song. Well I’m still trying to use the gong as much as I can. Christine sings over Kristians guitar and Alex Caird again on bass.
O/O: That’s lovely bass playing actually.
TS: He’s a fantastic bass player, I really admire that guy and we worked really easily together. As you know we worked on Tuscany as well, so we had a bit of an understanding and we’ve been friends for years. He’s one of my son’s oldest friends and it’s great to be playing with him. All the lyrics are by Betty on these tracks we are listening to. The chorus had a different melody previously but we’ve changed it to this now. We’re gonna add backing vocals and I want to put a tubular bell in there. I would love to be able to use a real orchestra but price prohibits. With samplers nowadays you can get fantastic sounds so we use samples for the string sounds and the choir.
O/O: I’m sure Renaissance fans will really be looking forward to hearing the album after reading this interview. Thank you for travelling all this way to do it.